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Agnes
January 17th, 2006, 01:36 PM
I've became vegetarian recently. I've decided to boycott cruelty by not buying animal products anymore. ( http://www.peta.org/ )
However while searching for information on health and nutrition I stumbled upon this exciting news about soy blocking DHT:

http://www.newstarget.com/001047.html

There are many more information about this on the internet - just google on soy and hair loss.

What happend to Zannie ?

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"When a human being kills an animal for food, he is neglecting his own hunger for justice. Man prays for mercy, but is unwilling to extend it to others. Why should man then expect mercy from God? It is unfair to expect something that you are not willing to give." Isaac B. Singer

mrs_anna
January 17th, 2006, 03:18 PM
uh.. I just don't like soy milk and I love cow's milk... What to do? :D

That being said I think it is very interesting how much food can influence our body. I think most people in this forum have become much more interested in proper diet than they were before this hair loss thingy started.

Love, etc...
Anna

redclaire
January 17th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Saddly, if you have any thyroid issues at all, you have to stay away from soy. :(

krapiva
January 17th, 2006, 04:39 PM
You might want to stay away from soy in either case...yes, it's true that it lowers DHT..mostly cause it behaves like an estrogen, raises SHBG which lowers testosterone...but it's NOT an estrogen, so what it does it competes with real estrogen for it's receptors, but it can't really unlock the receptro site as an estrogen would do..which creates a low estrogen situation in your body...since most of female HL is caused by low estrogen and not high testosterone, it's better not to go overboard with soy

Lily
January 17th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Soy is one of the many things I have tried to stop/slow my hair loss (I'm menopausal). Like everything else, there were no positive outcomes.

wyonna
January 17th, 2006, 06:54 PM
You might want to stay away from soy in either case...yes, it's true that it lowers DHT..mostly cause it behaves like an estrogen, raises SHBG which lowers testosterone...but it's NOT an estrogen, so what it does it competes with real estrogen for it's receptors, but it can't really unlock the receptro site as an estrogen would do..which creates a low estrogen situation in your body...since most of female HL is caused by low estrogen and not high testosterone, it's better not to go overboard with soy

Light bulb comes on.......... I have beening drinking soy milk with my ceral for the last week atleast and i bet that is way I have the scalp pain cussss the estrogen is not getting through and i am alittle more crankie!!!!!!THANKS krapiva

krapiva
January 17th, 2006, 06:57 PM
i used to drink lots of soy milk too..i don't anymore...

redclaire
January 17th, 2006, 07:02 PM
You might want to stay away from soy in either case...yes, it's true that it lowers DHT..mostly cause it behaves like an estrogen, raises SHBG which lowers testosterone...but it's NOT an estrogen, so what it does it competes with real estrogen for it's receptors, but it can't really unlock the receptro site as an estrogen would do..which creates a low estrogen situation in your body...since most of female HL is caused by low estrogen and not high testosterone, it's better not to go overboard with soy

Light bulb comes on.......... I have beening drinking soy milk with my ceral for the last week atleast and i bet that is way I have the scalp pain cussss the estrogen is not getting through and i am alittle more crankie!!!!!!THANKS krapiva

Not to mention that it may be interfering with your thyroid meds! Which doesn't help the shed at all.

Karen
January 17th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Thanks Krapiva,

I've added soy since this all happened "thinking" it was good for me. I didn't know that it wasn't.

Agnes
January 18th, 2006, 01:29 AM
Thanks so much, girls. I didn't know about this serious side effects of soy and I have a thyroid problem indeed. What a shame. I'll switch soy milk for rice milk than.

Agnes
January 18th, 2006, 02:45 AM
Did some more research and found this :
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/davis_soy_safe.htm

It makes sense that the meat lobby ( meat is big business ! ) tries hard to discredit soy - and with success.
Soy has been around for hundreds of years and suddenly we're getting a pile of studies that warn people about soy consumption. The question always is : who is paying.

What strikes me is that Asian people always have thick and healthy hair.

mrs_anna
January 18th, 2006, 04:13 AM
I agree, Agnes.

I have read somewhere that asian men who eat western food suffer from AGA at an earlier age than men who eat asian food.

I don't think we should be so suspicious of soy - it is completely natural and unless you eat soy products for breakfast lunch and dinner I do not think the side effects are that bad. Rather I think we are doing our body a favour by staying away from cow milk.
And the phyto-estrogene is not that high dosed that it will make a tremendous difference - unless you have a very unstable hormone system, which is unfortunately the case for many women here.

Maybe it would be good as a preventive measure and not as treatment...

Love, etc...
Anna

Agnes
January 18th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Appearently there is a hugh difference between fermented and unfermented soy products. Only unfermented soy has this undiserable side effects. Fermented soy products - miso, soy souce, tempeh and specially fermented soy milk and fermented tofu - are safe.

detailed information :
http://www.mercola.com/2004/aug/4/fermented_soy.htm

Tricia
January 18th, 2006, 01:47 PM
What strikes me is that Asian people always have thick and healthy hair.

That's quite a stereotype.

Tricia
January 18th, 2006, 01:52 PM
One more thing, Propecia blocks DHT too. I've been trying that since the middle of October. I perceive some benefits with Propecia, but I'm not jumping up and down about it and I could drop it anytime.

If you listen to the medical professionals, DHT blocking is not a hair loss cure-all and they will tell you it is ineffective for female pattern baldness.

redclaire
January 18th, 2006, 02:32 PM
This is my take on soy, asian hair loss, beef etc....


I think that soy CAN be good for a person who is in "normal" health. For instance there's no way someone who has a thyroid condition can ignore the fact that soy interferes with their treatment. I think that anyone who moves to a vastly different culture and changes their diet in a huge way may suffer from hair loss. Especially moving from a culture that eats such healthy whole foods to one where much of the food is processed. I think that at one time beef wasn't so bad, but now between hormones and pesticides, etc. it's much different than the beef that our parents consumed.
I think that hair loss is actually on the rise because of all of these factors.
Just my .02

mrs_anna
January 18th, 2006, 02:44 PM
I think you are right Claire.

I am definitely under the impression that hair loss is becoming much more common now than it was 20 years ago. Does anyone of you have anything that might prove/disprove this assumption?

I think the reasons are processed food, pollution and a changed lifestyle. Basically our bodies have much more to deal with (stress, pollution) and less to fight it with (less vitamins, fibres, protein, etc...)

Love, etc...
Anna

Tricia
January 18th, 2006, 03:12 PM
The only thing I've read on the increasing prevalence of hair loss has been antecdotal. I did read that doctors in Singapore are concerned about the rising incidence of female pattern baldness and that female baldness is increasing at rates higher than male pattern baldness over there.

krapiva
January 18th, 2006, 03:44 PM
However, studies have been mixed. While some do indeed show soy acting as an anti-estrogen, others suggest soy may act as a weak estrogen itself, increasing cancer risk. Interestingly, some studies have shown that while small amounts of genestein increase cell growth, large amounts inhibit it.

from the article..so they're saying exactly what i am..that it can act as a weak estrogen and compete for estrogen receptors..it's not strong enough to cause cancer, but it's not strong enough to generate as much benefit for estrogen based hairloss as a real estrogen would...i have absolutely nothing against soy when you're not suffering from HL caused by low estrogen...so for people who's loss is caused by high adrogens, such as PCOS sufferers soy could be helpful...but not for those of us sensitive to E's fluxes..

redclaire
January 18th, 2006, 04:19 PM
The only thing I've read on the increasing prevalence of hair loss has been antecdotal. I did read that doctors in Singapore are concerned about the rising incidence of female pattern baldness and that female baldness is increasing at rates higher than male pattern baldness over there.

I think it's because they view hair loss as a "cosmetic" problem.
The thing is.... we all know that a sure fire way of finding out something is wrong is by examining the hair and nails and skin.
That points out that there's a problem. I don't mean just on an individual basis, but on the world as a whole.

kookla
January 19th, 2006, 06:43 AM
I drink chocolate soy milk. I think it tastes great but I am a big milk drinker in general. Can't say it hurt or helped my hair loss but I am recovering so maybe it had a positive effect. I haven't experienced anything that would indicate it has been a negative since I started drinking it. My shed took place BEFORE I started drinking it. If you want to try it, why not? I think it might have helped with hot flashes if nothing else. At any rate, I didn't use any prescribed treatments to stop the shedding and I seem to be one of the few who were lucky enough to have the shed actually slow down and regrowth occur. Hope this helps.

Etrika
February 2nd, 2006, 10:10 PM
I'm a veggie too, and don't use dairy milk either.

These are good sites for all kinds of info: http://www.veggieboards.com and http://www.veganoutreach.com

I keep hearing about the negative effects of the (growth?) hormones in most cow's milk - I don't know if they would theoretically help or hinder hairloss, i.e. if they affect estrogen...anyone know?

(suddenly I can't remember which "affect/effect" to use...)

Agnes
February 3rd, 2006, 08:00 AM
Hi Etrika,

Nice to meet you.

Consumtion of cows milk is linked to osteoporosis and cancer : http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

Also dairy products are contaminated with hormons, cow's blood and pus...hmmm delicious.

redclaire
February 3rd, 2006, 03:01 PM
I'm a veggie too, and don't use dairy milk either.

These are good sites for all kinds of info: http://www.veggieboards.com and http://www.veganoutreach.com

I keep hearing about the negative effects of the (growth?) hormones in most cow's milk - I don't know if they would theoretically help or hinder hairloss, i.e. if they affect estrogen...anyone know?

(suddenly I can't remember which "affect/effect" to use...)

I'm most worried about the growth hormones. Most all of the other information about milk ( with all due respect, Agnes) I take with a grain of salt.
However, I also worry about what they're putting on our fruits and vegitables. And living in the middle of farm country USA... it really is a concern. That said.... for anyone who thinks going organic is the fix.... well, you'd be surprised how un organic organic can be.

krapiva
February 3rd, 2006, 03:15 PM
vegeterian lifestyle and lack of proteins and fats and amino acids does the following:

a) not enough cholesterol, not enough hormones being created, i.e. lower estradiol...skin, nails and hair NEED estradiol for growth and health

b) excessive intake of phytoestrogens cause even bigger estrogen deficiency which increases all the symptoms of estrogen deficiency including hairloss

c) lack of proteins decreases the amount of ferritin and B12, another necessary things for hair growth...

low fat and vegeterian lifestyles are the worst for healthy hormonal health!

Etrika
February 3rd, 2006, 08:53 PM
vegeterian lifestyle and lack of proteins and fats and amino acids does the following:

a) not enough cholesterol, not enough hormones being created, i.e. lower estradiol...skin, nails and hair NEED estradiol for growth and health

b) excessive intake of phytoestrogens cause even bigger estrogen deficiency which increases all the symptoms of estrogen deficiency including hairloss

c) lack of proteins decreases the amount of ferritin and B12, another necessary things for hair growth...

low fat and vegeterian lifestyles are the worst for healthy hormonal health!

I clearly had my hairloss problem before I went veggie, so I feel pretty confident that's not the cause - I get plenty of protein and fats - and lots of vegetarians have full heads of hair. In fact, most women on here aren't vegetarians, and they're losing their hair anyway.

krapiva
February 4th, 2006, 12:39 AM
many vegeterians have other hormonal problems...some lose hair, others experiencing vaginal pain...or headaches...or non stop UTI's..you'd think it's all unrelated but these are all linked to the lack of estrogen...and estrogen needs cholesterol...and then as i said soy overloads estrogen receptors and makes hormonal problems worse...

Etrika
February 4th, 2006, 01:33 AM
many vegeterians have other hormonal problems...some lose hair, others experiencing vaginal pain...or headaches...or non stop UTI's..you'd think it's all unrelated but these are all linked to the lack of estrogen...and estrogen needs cholesterol...and then as i said soy overloads estrogen receptors and makes hormonal problems worse...

No one really knows the exact effect of soy on the human body; the data is conflicting. And not all veggies eat soy.

likewise:

The role of estrogen in hair growth in humans is not clear. However both oral and topical estrogens are prescribed by physicians to treat hair loss in women -- although there are no controlled studies to support this use of estrogen.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:B0D ... irloss.htm (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:B0DksESeGvkJ:womenshealth.about.com/cs/hairloss/a/hairloss.htm)

I don't think that you can say all of what you say with such absolute certainty.

If it were all figured out, we wouldn't be here!

Agnes
February 4th, 2006, 01:36 AM
Krapvia, you don't mind me asking if you are earning your money with animal suffering ? You sound like it. The statements you posted are incorrect, but suitable meat-lobbyist material. Anyone interested in the medical facts about a healthy vegetarian diet check here:

http://www.goveg.com/veganism_health.asp


Check out the Harvard studies about the animal protein- cancer link.
According to Dr. William Castelli, chair of the Nutrition Department at Harvard Medical School and the researcher who has directed the longest-running clinical trial in history, A low-fat, plant-based diet would lower the cancer rate 60 percent.

And yes, my hair has gotten better since I'v adopted a healthy and cruelty-free lifestyle. God bless.

redclaire
February 4th, 2006, 02:21 AM
Krapvia, you don't mind me asking if you are earning your money with animal suffering ? You sound like it. The statements you posted are incorrect, but suitable meat-lobbyist material. Anyone interested in the medical facts about a healthy vegetarian diet check here:



And yes, my hair has gotten better since I'v adopted a healthy and cruelty-free lifestyle. God bless.

Except that you use Rogaine which is developed by Pfizer, a company well known for animal testing.

redclaire
February 4th, 2006, 02:36 AM
And let me add to the above.

All I'm stating is that in spite of all we do to do our best, there are priorities. Krapiva's priority is to find the hormonal imbalance that causes most hair loss. In doing so she found the information that shows most fad diets ( whether moral or not) can contribute to imbalances in the human physiology. With women, that ends up being hormonal ( lucky us).

To attack her for stating her findings is highly unfair. She's spent much time and effort in being thorough about information. It's grand that you are morally against eating meat, however, to take the moral high ground while using a product most likely tested on animals ( given Pfizer's reputation)... well, you can see where I'm going with that. And let's be honest, not even a product that is life saving by medical standards ( we'll all admit that emotional standards are a whole other area here).

There are studies EVERYwhere to prove both points. However, all studies come from people who have an agenda. I can find just as much information on how meat/dairy/ ho-hos are good for us as I can that they aren't. Personally, I take them all with a grain of salt. I do not think any of them are completely off base, nor do I think any of them are the complete answer.

Krapiva's information may not apply to anyone posting on this forum, but many people read this. IF it is likely that a vegetarian diet has led to a hormonal upset in a woman, it's important that she come across that idea. The truth is.... till someone changes their diet, they can't be sure... but they can't change unless they acknowledge it's a possibility.

Etrika
February 4th, 2006, 02:59 AM
IF it is likely that a vegetarian diet has led to a hormonal upset in a woman, it's important that she come across that idea.

That's definitely the debatable thing. I'm not convinced, so my issue is simply with someone stating it as fact. And the same with soy - no one really knows.

Re. animal tested products that are on the market: The animals have already died for them, and not using the product isn't going to bring them back. The laws for this product most likely insisted that it was animal tested. Which doesn't mean that in order to be shown safe it NEEDED to be animal tested (except by law), just that it WAS animal tested (i.e. causality is not implied; see Vioxx, thalidomide, phen-phen and other drugs which passed animal tests and still caused harm to humans). So in my mind the issue is a red herring. Sugar has also been tested on animals, but I'm not going to stop using that just because someone decided they wanted to do some study with monkeys on sugar.

Agnes
February 4th, 2006, 03:31 AM
Fair enough, Red Claire.

I know it is hard and sometimes impossible to avoid animal products or product that have been tested on animals. Minoxidil would be avoidable, yes ! ( thanks for reminding me ) I would take lifesaving meds too, because I'm not a member of a suicidal sect or so. I'd surely prefer the pharmaceutical and cosmetical industrie to stop wasting lives and adopt alternativ testing methods ( some companies have in fact, icluding Clinique, Chanel and Estee Lauder ). Animal testing is a serious ethical problem, but one should not look back at what can not be changed anymore but support the development of alternative testing methods now.

Agnes

Here is a little joke :
A vivisector is having a nightmare: lying on a cold steel table, he's going numb as a giant rat approaches with a large knife.
The rat says, "We are going to need those kidneys, my friend."
"Wait!" shouts the vivisector. "I understand that I'm going to die, but just tell me, is it for the good of humanity?"
"Something like that," the rat tells him with a smirk. "It's for the good of two manatees."

kookla
February 4th, 2006, 12:16 PM
You can find milk that has no growth hormones. That's what I use. If you shop Whole Foods you can also go pretty organic for most items.

krapiva
February 4th, 2006, 12:34 PM
i am not going to defend myself...it's just info...take it or leave it..but if you'd like to read for yourself..check out Vliet's book "it's my Ovaries, Stupid"...a very entertaining book...and i used to be a vegeterian myself..and my first instinct when hairloss began was to add more plant protein and soy..i basically lived on soy..reading dr. Vliet and dr. Schwartsbein totally changed my perspective...after all a lot of animals eat other animals...cuz their more advanced systems require meat to stay balanced..again, as an ex vegeterian, i have NOTHING against vegeterianism...but i believe over the years it can create or contribute to hormonal imbalance...

krapiva
February 4th, 2006, 12:36 PM
and accusing me of animal cruelty isn't lobbyism of a sort?! btw, i have two beautiful cats at home, and signed many petitions against animal cruelty...

redclaire
February 4th, 2006, 01:20 PM
IF it is likely that a vegetarian diet has led to a hormonal upset in a woman, it's important that she come across that idea.

That's definitely the debatable thing. I'm not convinced, so my issue is simply with someone stating it as fact. And the same with soy - no one really knows.

Re. animal tested products that are on the market: The animals have already died for them, and not using the product isn't going to bring them back. The laws for this product most likely insisted that it was animal tested. Which doesn't mean that in order to be shown safe it NEEDED to be animal tested (except by law), just that it WAS animal tested (i.e. causality is not implied; see Vioxx, thalidomide, phen-phen and other drugs which passed animal tests and still caused harm to humans). So in my mind the issue is a red herring. Sugar has also been tested on animals, but I'm not going to stop using that just because someone decided they wanted to do some study with monkeys on sugar.

But one could argue to continue using a product by a company that continues to animal test is at best hypocritical.
Now, don't get me wrong... I'm highly hypocritical. I won't use cosmetics that are tested on animals. But you bet I'll use some life saving medication on my child and not even take into consideration how it became life saving. I can live with that.
Saying that I think that as thinking people we have to come to terms with what is done and what we must do. It is important for you to maintain your hair and therefor you can find justifucation for using a Pfizer product. It is important for Krapiva to balance her hormones and therefor she can find the justification in eating meat. Which, btw, I was around when she came to that conclusion and it was a struggle for her. She'd been a vegitarian for quite some time.
I DO think putting the information out there for both sides of the story is very important. I just don't think we need to read an agenda any deeper than " Wanting to share my knoweldge" in the situation. Not because anyone needs to change, but because if THEY think they need a change they may just find a lightbulb moment. It doesn't matter which bit of information does it, as long as it gets them on the road to well being.

Anges, I actually don't know about Minoxidol. I know it's in Rogaine, which is a Pfizer drug. However Minoxidol was created by Upjohn pharmacueticals and I have NO idea what their testing issues are.

Saddly Kookla, living in farm country I've learned that the whole idea of Organic is all reletive. At least with vegitables and fruit. Milk is another story, I'm sure because it's easy to test for the growth hormones.
But with the vegitables, what is used for fertilizing the soil and keeping away insects is only a shade grayer than non organic.

Lily
February 4th, 2006, 03:14 PM
" so my issue is simply with someone stating it as fact. "

I think we have to be careful about offering advice to make sure others realize it is just that--our opinions formed on what we have read or what has worked for us. I think the problem of female hair loss and specifically AGA is so complex that no one can make a blanket statement that it's estrogen or lack of protein or anything else. What works for someone (estrogen) might not work for me--hasn't worked for me. As far as vegetarianism, the only thing I know about that is I have an acquaintance who has lupus. After much suffering she went to a holistic-type clinic and became a total vegan. Her health is vastly improved--she still has lupus but can handle the ups and downs much better. Would that help or hinder someone's AGA--I don't know (she has beautiful hair). I don't think pronouncements work at all--not thinking of anyone specifically, but just hoping we all realize that it boils down to opinions. Even medical authorities disagree so who knows for sure?

Agnes
February 4th, 2006, 03:46 PM
Krapvia, I mistook your rave against a vegan diet as meat lobbyism, while it now seems to me that you are rather debating with yourself if you can justify animals raised in misery and killed for you to feast on their corpses. Coming back to the original topic soy :


..i basically lived on soy... I'd like to know if you consumed mainly unfermented or fermented soy. As studies point out, the difference lays exactly there ! Asians in fact consume very little unfermented, but hughe quantities of fermented soy, that is miso, soy souce and tempeh. And if one is critical of soy, fine. There are plenty of alternatives : http://www.vegsoc.org/info/foodfacts.html .

For vitamin B12 I take yeast as in marmite ( vitamin b 12 is just a bacterium ! ), vor iron chick peas and dried apricots, to name a few excellent sources. It is a bit early for me to say that my current regrowth is due to my new diet, but I think it helped.

redclaire
February 4th, 2006, 07:47 PM
[quote="Agnes"]Krapvia, I mistook your rave against a vegan diet as meat lobbyism, while it now seems to me that you are rather debating with yourself if you can justify animals raised in misery and killed for you to feast on their corpses. Coming back to the original topic soy :

quote]

:twisted:

I can... especially medium rare with a nice cianti. :wink:

dee01832
February 4th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Never a dull moment!

dee01832
February 4th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I must add-- i think krapiva is VERY educated- she has helped me ALOT~ I appreciate her every word typed on here, whether its opinion or fact! So reguardless of what ever started this debate, people are just sharing their opinions, thats all. Thats what forums are all about. Lets not loose sight here- we all want one thing no matter how we get it right! OUR HAIR!!! So we need to stand together and stong and research everything--share information we have learned on every subject related to our hair! No need to pass judgement on any one for any reason.. i mean jessh i love meat, and veggies! :roll:

redclaire
February 4th, 2006, 08:25 PM
ack! I hope everyone realizes that the cianti thing was in jest. Honestly, I think it's great to give up meat in protest. Heck... I think protest is great.... I just a flash to Silence of the Lambs and had to do it.

Karen
February 4th, 2006, 08:41 PM
I must add-- i think krapiva is VERY educated- she has helped me ALOT~ I appreciate her every word typed on here, whether its opinion or fact! .. i mean jessh i love meat, and veggies! :roll:

ditto --- what Dee said

Etrika
February 5th, 2006, 03:17 AM
I'll just say: logic dictates that if there were a meaningful and consistent link to the vegetarian/hairloss connection, there would be a lot more vegetarians here (and both of the ones speaking here had hairloss problems before they became vegetarians); and if it were so clear what causes what hormonally, none of us would be here - we would know what to do/take, and our problems would be solved.

While I'm not someone who generally goes into this unless asked, I'd like to add...I really didn't realize just how abysmally animals were treated in the process to becoming food, until I did my research. Everything from the raising, to the transport, to the slaughter. We have far too much faith in industry and essentially non-existent laws to protect farm animals. People think the problem is just in the killing, but it's not. It's the whole process from the miserable beginning to miserable end, in which death is actually a mercy for these creatures. I could no longer pretend that I "loved" animals and contribute to their immense suffering. The vast majority are raised on factory farms, in which their entire beings are violated, and they live their lives in vast deprivation. Look at the dead eyes of a factory farmed pig who has never seen daylight, never touched grass, gnawing at the bars that confine her; the hen who lives her life never seeing daylight, never able to spread her wings, as she's confined in a shed to a space less than the size of an 8x11 sheet of paper; the chained, anemic veal calf who is the direct result of the dairy industry. It's no life for these animals. If I wouldn't do this to my pet, I wouldn't do this to another animal either. But everyone must make their own choices in life and be satisfied with how they live and what they do. The lives of animals, and not contributing to this suffering, are important to me.

krapiva
February 5th, 2006, 12:47 PM
i wanted to not continue this absolutely useless debate...but excuse me...by you becoming veggie, how did any of the animals benefit? did you write a letter stating that they can slaughter one less cow, cuz you're no longer eating beef?

thanx, Claire, Dee, Karen..everyone else who's supported me..i definitely don't claim to have any medical background...but my intentions are to share what i've learned...

here's a passage from Vliet i was referring to:

"The phytoestrogens, found in several hundred different plants, are biologically weaker than the native human estrogens. Phytoestrogen effects at the human estrogen receeptors are not the same as our own estradiol..Your body cannot make the identical ovarian estradiol from the phytoestrogens in soy or yams. All of the phytoestrogen chemical building blocks require chemical conversion in the laboratory because our body does not have the enzymes to make these changes. Taking pytoestrogen suppolements does not restore what your ovary made. Even worse, high concentrations of phytoestrogens, such as soy isofavones, can overwhelm your declining estradiol at receptor sites and interfere with the action and production of the body's :natural" estradiol, even though phytoestrogens are less potent than estradiol. In addition ot these receptor effects, studies also show that high soy intake in premenopausal women suppresses ovary production of estradiol and progesterone by 20 go 50 percent. That's a significan loss, especially if you already have symptoms of hormone imbalance"

pg 187 of the book "It's my Ovaries, Stupid"

there's a ton of info on why pempro isn't really an estrogen...i'll post that for you, Lily later, k?

but i am not trying to push anybody in any direction..i am reading a book with a ton of useful info..so i share as i go along...

Now, please go back to debating animal writes...i'll go look at my regrowth in the mirror :)

Etrika
February 5th, 2006, 02:51 PM
it's all about supply and demand. It's pretty simple.

I don't think that dismissively passing off the reality of what happens to animals on the vast majority of farms (factory farms) by calling it "animal writes" (!) is honest or useful. It's pretty sad and appalling to even the most casual observer who begins to look into it, and has nothing to do with "rights." There are people from all ends of the spectrum who have the heart to care about this issue, once they've looked into it. But as I said, everyone must make their own choices.

I'll certainly be eager to finally read about your regrowth!

dee01832
February 5th, 2006, 06:01 PM
Etrica! There are many forums on vegans, pleae take this discussion to one of them! Frankly the snide comments are PISSING ME OFF!

redclaire
February 5th, 2006, 06:39 PM
[quote="Etrika"]I'll just say: logic dictates that if there were a meaningful and consistent link to the vegetarian/hairloss connection, there would be a lot more vegetarians here (and both of the ones speaking here had hairloss problems before they became vegetarians); and if it were so clear what causes what hormonally, none of us would be here - we would know what to do/take, and our problems would be solved.
quote]

To be fair. Krapiva did not directly link a vegetarian diet and hair loss. She linked a vegetaretarian diet and hormonal imbalance. Not all people who suffer hormonal imbalances suffer hair loss ( luckies!).
She also did not say that vegetarian diets are the only thing that throws off the hormone balance.
Like all things, it depends on the people. Like all things ( hormonal and within hair loss) it can be trial and error, which is why people should know ALL the different studies.
I am sorry that you felt threatened by her statement, but she was not pointing fingers at you ( as I'm about to do), she was simply stating the facts of a study she's become very familiar with.
Sure a vegetarian diet might be good for some people, but for many it's not. *I* could never be a vegetarian because I can't rely on soy ( any sort of soy) at all. Soy interferes with the thyroid.
As far as animal rights... I honestly can not take such rants seriously from someone who uses a "cosmetic" chemical that is created by a company as bad as Pfizer. Call me a b*&^ ( 'cause I am), but to a certain point it becomes ridiculous. Even in my accepting of hypocricy world.

P.S.
I wasn't going to post this... but if you are going to claim the cruelty of meat eaters... <shrug>

Dorinha
February 5th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Holy smokes everyone! What is going on???

I think nobody should be making unilateral statements claiming this or that, whether it be about the detriments of a vegetarian diet or eating animal corpses. We all have our opinions and they are just that, opinions. Just because we find corroboration of our views in a book or an article doesn't mean that its gospel. It does however help us to learn, and maybe dig a little deeper etc.

This site has been a great source of support for me, and ladies you know I love you! I have to tell you that I really hate it when I see antagonism going on. Its one thing to have a respectful debate, (we need those once in a while!) but unfortunately, this thread is not one of them. It is very clear that everyone has their own strong opinion, can we just agree to disagree?

D

krapiva
February 5th, 2006, 10:38 PM
May be we're debating :) ok, ok, may be NOT!

and Etrika, i've got plenty of regrowth....

but really, i didn't mean to stir anything...nor do i want to waste any energy on this...i agree to disagree :)