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Process of elimination...

Discussion in 'Women's Alopecia Areata' started by ginawat, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    I kind of disagree. I think Androgenetic Alopecia has its roots (pun!) in synthetic hormones. I know I would not be here today if I by-passed them in the first place. No one in my family suffers with hair loss (including the men)...none of the women in my family (going far back) ever took bcp. I think the rates of female hair loss (pre-menopausal) went up significantly with the onset of the pill.

    But,once again this is just my opinion.
     
  2. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    Androgenetic Alopecia means androgenic alopecia meaning it's origin is genetic...if a women develop hair loss consequently to an illadapted pill then she stops taking this pill and everything usually goes back to normal...because the BCP only have an effect with hormones at a given time...hormonal pills do not mess ith the genes of the person...If afterstopping the said pill the hairloss does not stop them the pill might have only uncovered the Androgenetic Alopecia earlier that is it, but if it were not for the pill the Androgenetic Alopecia would have appeared anyway...there are many women with Androgenetic Alopecia and no history of hair loss in their family.

    My Androgenetic Alopecia was by no way provoked by the birth control pill since when it started i never had swollowed a single of this pill, on the contrary the pill bettered things for me.
    Most of women on this board with Androgenetic Alopecia will reckon the bcp is not responsible for this. Androgenetic Alopecia can be worsened by certain pill that aren not antoandrogenic and improved by some who are antiandrogenic.

    Also several studies have shown that the new bcp were not risky if taken for several years, on the contrary some of them are believed to preserve women from certain cancer... I am at higher risk for plenty of gynecological problems without the pill including ovarian cancer... One of my friends needsto be on the pill because she has a lot of kysts in her breast . Her mom had breast cancer yet never has been on the pill, and for her the pill help her from developping those bresat kysts that migh become dangerous....
    i believe the bcp help many women avoid a lot of healt issues more than they are responsible for some. Maybe you should consult a dermatologist for you problem, and ask him what can be done for Androgenetic Alopecia...

    Really besides Minoxidil and the BCP not much can be done.yes you have topical antiandrogens.
    good luck then if you choose another way...
     
  3. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    If what you say is the case then why are we all on this site seeking more and more? Lets just all (Androgenetic Alopecia-ers) keep trying different bcps and rogaine and be done with it. Why do we continue to log in?

    I disagree totally with what you say. I understand what you say - but I still disagree. I do not base my opinions soley on conventional medicine because I know that conventional medicine is more about big bucks than on the health of patient.

    I also have a friend whose mother got breast cancer BECAUSE of the previous HRTs (before they combined the progesterone WITH estrogen) So there are many of facts proving the contrary to what you list - meaning losts of hormone drugs hurt rather than help. Its an individualized process.

    As for all the rest that you post - I'll need to re-read because I had a cosmo tonight and none of it is making much sense :) :jump:
     
  4. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    We continue to log in because unfortunately in some cases the pill or hormonal therapy or the minoxidil do not do anyhitng, it depends from person to person...some people just wont respond to any treatment... My hair loss has stopped thanks to the bcp...
    i even experienced major regrowth but then my docs thought my pcos was not really pcos ..and told me to stop the pill then i lost whatever i had gained back plus all what i should have lost during the period i was on the pill if i had not been on it..this time my follicles were certainly too much damaged by the androgens , and i dont get the regrow i got the first time, yet i am on the same treatment..it's not the treatment that does not work but my follicle that are now weaker and dont respond so well...

    we all hope something will come along, and want to share other's experience...but in the case of Androgenetic Alopecia ..there are no miracle cure, maybe it will come. we come here also to hear success stpries, and see what is possible and not, ...


    and yeah a lot is about big bucks...but the only logical way to reduce the effect of androgens or the sensibility of the scalp to androgens is to lower those androgens...ti's just logical....

    As for the ancer risk i am not saying there is none, adn that hromonal therapy is good all the time, but there are many cases where it helps, plus the newest pill arent as bad as the old ones, report have been published that shows that those arent as bad. Anyway many women like me just cannot have a normal life and are at risks for many things if they dont take it, i am a living example of this...other pcos girls on this board too..

    almost all the girls on this board with Androgenetic Alopecia are or try to get on some sort of anti androgen treatment...
    but if you find another treatment let me now....


    If we log in it's because we are among the cases who do not respond well..bt out there many women have successfully treated their Androgenetic Alopecia. M endo was so convinced my treatment alone was going to reverse it, actually even my previous endo, and also my derm..in most cases this work unless the Androgenetic Alopecia is too advanced...but they can be wrong.
    My endo is also a close friend of my dad and believe me she would not prescribe me somtehing if she thought it would not work, she is a specialist and give conference everywhere .
     
  5. alicat

    alicat Guest

    I'm honestly wondering if anything works anymore? :whistle:
     
  6. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    yeah...
    but for sure Androgenetic Alopecia do not have "its root in synthetic hormones" otherwise it would not even been called Androgenetic Alopecia and men would not get it.
     
  7. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    Well - that brings me back to my point. They give it the name (Androgenetic Alopecia) because there is no other explanation. It is doubtful they will ever call it anything else.....but in reality it is a WOMENS issue and not a man's - even though it resembles the male pattern. I'm glad you brought up this point....because I think that the terminology given is proof that they have of swetp this issue under the carpet for too long.

    Have you ever wondered why we have so much more female hairloss now than say previous generations?

    I'm really not trying to debate the issue with you or anyone. I am just stating my opinion and I do appreciate discussing all angles of this. I think if more doctors and researchers did so we might get a "cure" sooner. Instead they are relying on what we have so far - which clearly is not working as there are few success stories out there. Lets pray that that will change - for all of our sakes.

    God bless
    G
     
  8. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    I dont think there is much more women Androgenetic Alopecia now than before.
    Besides the terminolog is very precise...Androgenetic Alopecia means ADROGENIC ALOPECIA ....if you try analyze the terminology it menas...a genetic predispositionto androgen the gives you alopecia...it's in the gene ..that is it..you were coneived like this...it's not something that appeared from something completely external.

    And if you find it that there are more women with it, then it might be the same reason that there are more diabetic people out there, ..unless in severe cases, Androgenetic Alopecia in women is often linked to a metabolic hormonal imbalance , that is also genetic but can be worsened by our way of life...it's often linke to prediabete or IR, meaning the food we eat contains way too much sugars and we are too sedentary....but the crux of the matter is still the gene and your sensibility to androgens.
    Androgenetic Alopecia do not have its root in medication or even less Androgenetic Alopecia friendly bcp, it has his root in genes. that is it...

    Otherwise tell me why once my hormones are checked i dont have hairloss anymore????why when i let my pcos unmedicated i get tired , i get hair loss and get lots of problem...

    you may have Androgenetic Alopecia without any hormonal problem, in this case the solution is still the same...
    then if you cannot tolerate BCP for any other reasoni understand..

    Make a research to know what Androgenetic Alopecia is...it's exactly the same thing for women as for male...only less women have it because usually they have less androgen so less likely to respond negatively to those....but still many women have it, and this is not new at all, for centuries women have been dealing with it just like men.
     
  9. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    I dont think there is much more women Androgenetic Alopecia now than before.
    Besides the terminolog is very precise...Androgenetic Alopecia means ADROGENIC ALOPECIA ....if you try analyze the terminology it menas...a genetic predispositionto androgen the gives you alopecia...it's in the gene ..that is it..you were coneived like this...it's not something that appeared from something completely external.

    And if you find it that there are more women with it, then it might be the same reason that there are more diabetic people out there, ..unless in severe cases, Androgenetic Alopecia in women is often linked to a metabolic hormonal imbalance , that is also genetic but can be worsened by our way of life...it's often linke to prediabete or IR, meaning the food we eat contains way too much sugars and we are too sedentary....but the crux of the matter is still the gene and your sensibility to androgens.
    Androgenetic Alopecia do not have its root in medication or even less Androgenetic Alopecia friendly bcp, it has his root in genes. that is it...

    Otherwise tell me why once my hormones are checked i dont have hairloss anymore????why when i let my pcos unmedicated i get tired , i get hair loss and get lots of problem...


    And of course there is no other explanation!!! because that one is the right one! it's even the less mysterious form of alopecia...Alopecia Areata, Alopecia Universalis and AT are way more difficutlt to understand for doctor...the process of Androgenetic Alopecia is pretty simple to understand compared to others , proof is there are many more effective treatment.

    you may have Androgenetic Alopecia without any hormonal problem, in this case the solution is still the same...
    then if you cannot tolerate BCP for any other reasoni understand..

    Make a research to know what Androgenetic Alopecia is...it's exactly the same thing for women as for male...only less women have it because usually they have less androgen so less likely to respond negatively to those....but still many women have it, and this is not new at all, for centuries women have been dealing with it just like men.


    and it is a women issue as much are a men issue..both alopecia , Androgenetic Alopecia, in men and women have the same ause in the very end...why otherwise would a dad passes on the gene to his a daughter???a gene that can be expressed in both gender...??
    Why if it was not the same root proble, would we be given antiandrogens to tackle it and why would this antiandrogens be effective in most cases?? Why would the hormone always responsible would be androgens?? Can you give me one single argument that support the fact that Androgenetic Alopecia in women has nothing to do with Androgenetic Alopecia in men??? because really i have none and i think all the dermatologist out there would be happy to know if you knew something they dont??
     
  10. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    But I do not have a hormone issue or a genetic link (no other female of male suffers with this problem in a long line of research) -so saying (FOR ME) that I have a predispostion or a sensitivity to androgens is purely speculation at this point - even a doctor would agree and this is proven by the fact that other women with this "diagnosis" do not respond well to anti-androgens.

    You have PCOS....so therefore we are talking about two different things ~ as in your case you have evidence of a hormonal issue. I do not. In some ways I wish I did because it would be a tad more cut and dry.

    As to why there are more diabetics now rather than before - that is as clear as the nose on my face. It has LESS to do with genes and MORE to do with our ever changing culture and diet. Ever watch Biggest Loser? How many of those folks wipe out their diabetes with sheer weight loss and healthy diets? LOTS.

    I can promise you this - give me a person WITHOUT the "said" diabetic (IR) gene and let me feed them a diet full of processed foods and have them gain 100 extra pounds and I will hand you back a diabetic.

    Sorry for type- os- I'm at work and fumbling back and forth with this and my job! :0
     
  11. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    But I do not have a hormone issue or a genetic link (no other female of male suffers with this problem in a long line of research) -so saying (FOR ME) that I have a predispostion or a sensitivity to androgens is purely speculation at this point - even a doctor would agree and this is proven by the fact that other women with this "diagnosis" do not respond well to anti-androgens.
    You are wrong. Genes can skip many generation.There are plenty of rare genetic diseases out there, and yet it comes from un unfortunate combination of gene.Mysister has a genetic disease and yet we do not know anybody in our family with it..
    Sensitivity to androgens does not only occur with hormonal issue.On the contrary if you take an healthy women who gots let's say lot of body hair she is more androgen sensitive than a hormonally vulnerable women with the same amount of body hair..because the healthy women do not need to have her hormones mesed up to get hairy.
    Many women with Androgenetic Alopecia and not hormonal issue are treated with minoxidil or antiandrogen and respond to this. If some do not respond it's because their are extremely androgen sensitive on their scalp or that they taclked it too late.the cause is Androgenetic Alopecia they just have real sensitive gene.

    You have PCOS....so therefore we are talking about two different things ~ as in your case you have evidence of a hormonal issue. I do not. In some ways I wish I did because it would be a tad more cut and dry....

    Yes i have PCOS ...but i have Androgenetic Alopecia. If i had not been PCOS i would have had Androgenetic Alopecia later on prolly at menaupose, or after childbirth. All women with PCOS do no have Androgenetic Alopecia. you need the GENE. And many young women without PCOS have Androgenetic Alopecia. The exams ran by derm to determinate you have Androgenetic Alopecia , if positive, show the same result for PCOS women with Androgenetic Alopecia, men with Androgenetic Alopecia, non pcos women with Androgenetic Alopecia. because it is Androgenetic Alopecia! pure and simple. On my dad side a cousin of me without PCOS have Androgenetic Alopecia real bad..and she got the gene from the same side as i did. it's no coincidence.



    I can promise you this - give me a person WITHOUT the "said" diabetic (IR) gene and let me feed them a diet full of processed foods and have them gain 100 extra pounds and I will hand you back a diabetic.

    Yes this is true...i never said the contrary. But we have all different level of tolerance for certain things in our body. People without IR, will tolerate more junk food for longer and remain healthier longer. we all have different treshold of tolerance. Plus IR does not have anything to do with weight. I am IR and weight 95/100 lbs for 5,6, low blood sugars ect...
     
  12. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    But I'm not (IR)
    No indication of PCOS or thyroid
    I have no genetic link

    So everything is a guess.
     
  13. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    okay here are some links...
    http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v8/ ... 0087a.html




    Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia), also known in women as female pattern hair loss, is caused by androgens in genetically susceptible women and men. The thinning begins between ages 12 and 40 years, the inheritance pattern is polygenic, and the incidence is the same as in men. In susceptible hair follicles, dihydrotestosterone binds to the androgen receptor, and the hormone-receptor complex activates the genes responsible for the gradual transformation of large terminal follicles to miniaturized follicles. Both young women and young men with Androgenetic Alopecia have higher levels of 5 reductase and androgen receptor in frontal hair follicles compared to occipital follicles. At the same time, young women have much higher levels of cytochrome p-450 aromatase in frontal follicles than men who have minimal aromatase, and women have even higher aromatase levels in occipital follicles. The diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia in women is supported by early age of onset, the pattern of increased thinning over the frontal/parietal scalp with greater density over the occipital scalp, retention of the frontal hairline, and the presence of miniaturized hairs. Most women with Androgenetic Alopecia have normal menses and pregnancies. Extensive hormonal testing is usually not needed unless symptoms and signs of androgen excess are present such as hirsutism, severe unresponsive cystic acne, virilization, or galactorrhea. Topical minoxidil solution is the only drug available for promoting hair growth in women with Androgenetic Alopecia. Efficacy has been shown in double-blind studies using hair counts and hair weight.




    In this article they make it clear that the cause is the same...androgens sensivity of the androgens receptor..also they make clear at the end that hormonal issues are not necessarily the cause of Androgenetic Alopecia unless they are evidence of other symptoms indicating a hormonal problem...this is very precise in this article...
    In way we can even say that your Androgenetic Alopecia gene is stronger than mine since i have it only if my androgen are not in a normal range...But in many women the Androgenetic Alopecia gene do not need peripheric causes to express itself...
    It is not because you do not have a hormonal issue that you do not have androgens in our body, we all have androgens.
    Androgenetic Alopecia is a gene like others gene...some peopleare born with a naturally darker skin, some needs the sun to be tan...Some people are born with Androgenetic Alopecia, some people are born with a less strong Androgenetic Alopecia , some people arent born with Androgenetic Alopecia.


    This is what another article says about Androgenetic Alopecia, women and androgen sensivity:
    Women with androgenetic alopecia do not have higher levels of circulating androgens. However, they have been found to have higher levels of 5a-reductase (which converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone), more androgen receptors, and lower levels of cytochrome P450 (which converts testosterone to estrogen).6
     
  14. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    another article...

    http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030301/1007.html

    Most women with androgenetic alopecia have normal menses, normal fertility, and normal endocrine function, including gender-appropriate levels of circulating androgens. Therefore, an extensive hormonal work-up is unnecessary. If a woman has irregular menses, abrupt hair loss, hirsutism, or acne recurrence, an endocrine evaluation is appropriate. In this situation, total testosterone, free testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and prolactin levels should be obtained.6

    Because the hair loss in androgenetic alopecia is an aberration of the normal hair cycle, it is theoretically reversible. Advanced androgenetic alopecia, however, may not respond to treatment, because the inflammation that surrounds the bulge area of the follicle may irreparably damage the follicular stem cell.


    This corroborates what i was saying..if is too severe that is the main reason for people not responding to treatment.
    Also the role of the androgen receptors corroborates the same thing i was saying...that antiandrogen can be useful since most of them will inibiths the action of androgens on the follicles as well as lowering androgens.
     
  15. ginawat

    ginawat Guest

    No offense - but do you think I haven't read every article written by every doctor, journal and foundation out there? Do you think these articles have enlightened me in some way?

    For every article out there that you send I can send 1,000 others that can tell of multiple other reasons for hair loss and things that even mimick Androgenetic Alopecia. There is so much information because t is such a misunderstood and highly questionable phenomenon.

    It just does not seem so cut and dry to me.

    I do however admire your tenacity....we both should have been lawyers!
     
  16. Blue Bird

    Blue Bird Guest

    Re: Alopecia Areata

    Is research close to finding better treatments or a cure for Alopecia Areata?

    While a cure is not imminent, researchers are making headway toward a better understanding of the disease. This increased understanding will likely lead the way to better treatments for alopecia areata and eventually a way to prevent or even cure it.

    Alopecia research ranges from the most basic studies of the mechanisms of hair growth and hair loss in mice to testing medications and ways to apply medications to help regrow hair in people. Both the National Institutes of Health and the National Alopecia Areata Foundation support research into the disease and its treatment. Here are some areas of research that hold promise.

    Mapping genes--Scientists are studying the possible genetic causes and mechanism of the disease both in families that have one or more persons with the disease and in the general population. An understanding of the genetics of the disorder will aid in disease prevention, early intervention, and development of specific therapies.


    The second I saw the drug Enbrel on a commercial (for psoriasis) I thought "I bet this would help Alopecia Areata" since it depresses the immune system...I am so smart, lol,

    Targeting the immune system--Several new agents found to be effective in treating psoriasis may prove to be effective in alopecia areata. These drugs work by blocking certain chemical messengers that play a role in the immune response, or by interfering with the activity of white blood cells (called T-cells) that are involved in the immune system's attack on hair follicles. New therapies for treating other autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and lupus may also benefit patients with alopecia areata.



    Finding better ways to administer drugs--One limitation of current topical therapies is getting the drug to the source of the problem. Scientists are looking for a substance that penetrates the fat under the skin to deliver medication directly to hair follicles. In laboratory animals, topically applied synthetic sacs called liposomes seem to fill the bill. Studies are still needed to show whether liposomes do the same for people.


    Understanding cytokines--Chemical messengers called cytokines play a role in regulating the body's immune response, whether it is the normal response to a foreign invader such a virus or an abnormal response to a part of the body. Researchers believe that by giving certain inflammation-suppressing cytokines, they may be able to slow down or stop the body's abnormal response to the hair follicles. Because giving the cytokines systemically may cause adverse effects, they believe a topical medication using liposomes to get the agents to the root of the hair inside the follicle may be preferable.



    Understanding stem cell biology--Epithelial stem cells are immature cells that are responsible for regenerating and maintaining a variety of tissues, including the skin and the hair follicles. Stem cells in the follicle appear to be spared from injury in alopecia areata, which may explain why the potential for regrowth is always there in people with the disease. By studying the biology of these cells, and their immediate offspring, which seem to be targeted by the immune system, scientists hope to gain a better understanding of factors that trigger the disease.
     
  17. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    You are not scientific enough for me, and do not make sense..that is how i feel anyway... you say you have Androgenetic Alopecia then you talk about it not beign Androgenetic Alopecia...then if you think your hairloss is not Androgenetic Alopecia dont call it Androgenetic Alopecia, and try to find the actual cause...the article isend are articles from researchers , real sound research not pseudo one...I am a researcher myself and believe me i ould not research and publish things that i believe are total crap.their credibility is at stake too.it is a misunderstood phenomenon yes, but more in the sense that we cannot find treatment for sure to help the follicle form shrinking..but we roughly know the cause and that is clearly genetic...

    dont say you have Androgenetic Alopecia then if you think you havent, Androgenetic Alopecia is a term used to design a specific form of hair loss...not something mysetrious that shows your body is not ok...
    I have been struggling with this since i am 16 i am 26 now and believe me i try to find out another reason , but besides aenemia and pcos there was no other reason..and PCOS is just a trigger not the cause in itself...the cause is just genetic...

    I am trying to explain things the more logically and scientifically as i can. But you are irrational in your efforts to understand Androgenetic Alopecia...but whatever route you want...

    stop saying you have Androgenetic Alopecia if you think you havent it.
     
  18. Blue Bird

    Blue Bird Guest

    dying curls

    Hi. try not to be so harsh on gina, k? she is distrough over this and trying to find answers and disagrees with some scientific findings. and thats ok. this is a place to share....

    How are you doing?

    :smack:
     
  19. dying curls

    dying curls Guest

    i know i knwo..i should not react like this...
    but it is the same kind of discourse i hear from my momo and family relatives " you cant have this, only men have this, " or even before pcoswhen i knew i had hormonal issues "you cant have this, a disease cannot do all this , "
    "your hair will grow back, you prolly dont eat the right way,blahblah"
    "Androgenetic Alopecia only happen to old ladies " and things like this...when finally i got diagnosed for pcos and Androgenetic Alopecia they started to listen to me, especially also when my sister also got diagnosed with PCOS a few years after... i suspected she had it and they would laugh at me everytime i told her to see a specialist and that was likely to be the reason why she could not get pregnant...and bingo..i was right...

    well i am just trying to explain this rationally...because our body is a machine with a mechanism we cant always understand, but in the end it is a very rational mechanic...

    I would love it if my Androgenetic Alopecia was not genetic...if it could be explained by something else..but..well
     
  20. Blue Bird

    Blue Bird Guest

    I know its so hard. MY BF has no CLUE about hair loss. I sent him a link to all kinds of hair loss and definitions for him to read. I doubt he read it. He thinks that the hairs in your bruch are ALL BROKEN off, not telogen hairs!!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! So he basically thinks hair never sheds, lol!!!!! I cannot talk hair loss with him, EVER!
     

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